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	Comments on: In defense of worship spaces	</title>
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	<description>A Weekly Newsletter and Blog from Martin Kelley</description>
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		<title>
		By: Alice Yaxley		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194643</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alice Yaxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2012 05:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194643</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Interesting comments. The one about prayer though. Are we so unaccustomed to prayer and worship  that we have to go to a special place to do it? I notice when I hang around with charismatics we are likely to have impromptu bible study and prayer when we meet up for coffee of chat because a lot of people I&#039;ve met in that tradition make it their intention to find the spaces to do that. They are looking to connect with the centre of life in God and making the opportunities to do it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comments. The one about prayer though. Are we so unaccustomed to prayer and worship  that we have to go to a special place to do it? I notice when I hang around with charismatics we are likely to have impromptu bible study and prayer when we meet up for coffee of chat because a lot of people I’ve met in that tradition make it their intention to find the spaces to do that. They are looking to connect with the centre of life in God and making the opportunities to do it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Julie Heiland		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194641</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julie Heiland]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194641</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194640&quot;&gt;Patricia Barber&lt;/a&gt;.

Hi Patricia,
I don&#039;t mean this in an offensive way, truly I don&#039;t. But what in the world does 47K get used for? I mean, that would be a hefty downpayment on a house (or even a church)! There are no taxes, so all you&#039;ve got is heat, air, electricity, water/sewer, lawn maintenance/landscaping (which at my church is done by parishioners), and cleaning products. I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine why any meetinghouse should cost that much to maintain unless there&#039;s a major improvement/repair planned. Also, I&#039;ve never been to a meeting that had more than around 60-70 people in attendance. Doing the math, that&#039;s quite a lot per person. Just curious.
Julie]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194640">Patricia Barber</a>.</p>
<p>Hi Patricia,<br>
I don’t mean this in an offensive way, truly I don’t. But what in the world does 47K get used for? I mean, that would be a hefty downpayment on a house (or even a church)! There are no taxes, so all you’ve got is heat, air, electricity, water/sewer, lawn maintenance/landscaping (which at my church is done by parishioners), and cleaning products. I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine why any meetinghouse should cost that much to maintain unless there’s a major improvement/repair planned. Also, I’ve never been to a meeting that had more than around 60–70 people in attendance. Doing the math, that’s quite a lot per person. Just curious.<br>
Julie</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patricia Barber		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194640</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patricia Barber]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 21:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194640</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fascinating conversation. I am a great admirer or the Church of the Savior in Washington, DC, that has eschewed worship spaces in favor of a deep commitment to social justice - feeding the hungry, housing the poor, etc. That said, at my meeting we own one of those historic meetinghouses that requires maintenance ($47,000 committed for this year and next) and which we all love. Our community is warm and active and growing, although the growth is the result of our outreach and nurture efforts rather than the extremely scenic venue - and we&#039;ve certainly had years when we have lost members and attenders, in spite of our meetinghouse. When we are not using the meetinghouse, it serves as a weekly venue for AA, and periodically for meetings by local community groups. We have permitted folks to use our lawn for yard sales to raise money for good causes. We hold dinners there for Hispanic guest workers from a local landscaping business. Between First Days, we allow the local folks to park their vehicles in our parking lot. We also have a one-room schoolhouse and until very recently operated a program where local schools sent 4th graders to experience what it was like to be a Quaker child in 1818. Although the village, where our meeting is located, was a Quaker community for many years, it no longer is, but our property is still very much part of the community and is valued even by those who never attend Meeting for Worship. 


Recently, my husband and I were called upon to rescue the Archbishop of Cape Town (head of the Anglican church in Southern Africa and the successor to Archbishop Tutu&#039;s seat) from a long lay over at Dulles Airport which is not too far from my meeting. We took him out to lunch at a local restaurant and then, since we had a little time to spare, we took him to the meetinghouse. When we entered, the sense of the many generations of good Quaker folk who had worshiped there was palpable and a hush descended upon us. Quite spontaneously we sat down and entered the silence for what I can only describe as a brief Meeting for Worship. The presence of the Spirit flowed through us and over us. It was an extraordinary experience and it would not have happened but for the opportunity afforded by the existence of the meetinghouse. My point is not that we needed the meetinghouse to pray together, but that God used this opportunity to bless us.


Perhaps, rather than viewing the issue of our meetinghouses as an either/or proposition, we should look upon them more in terms of both/and. If we use those spaces well, as part of our Quaker witness to the wider world, they can amplify our ministry. No meetinghouse, no matter how historic or beautiful, can take the place of a worship community, filled with the Spirit and going about God&#039;s work. We have ample evidence of that. And even if we sold these spaces and &quot;gave the money to the poor,&quot; there is no guarantee that that is, in and of itself, God&#039;s work. (Anyone who has had anything to do with foreign aid can attest to that!) Our meetinghouses are not sacred or holy, but assets to be put to God&#039;s service. If we are faithful and follow the leadings of the Spirit, we will &quot;come down where we ought to be.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating conversation. I am a great admirer or the Church of the Savior in Washington, DC, that has eschewed worship spaces in favor of a deep commitment to social justice — feeding the hungry, housing the poor, etc. That said, at my meeting we own one of those historic meetinghouses that requires maintenance ($47,000 committed for this year and next) and which we all love. Our community is warm and active and growing, although the growth is the result of our outreach and nurture efforts rather than the extremely scenic venue — and we’ve certainly had years when we have lost members and attenders, in spite of our meetinghouse. When we are not using the meetinghouse, it serves as a weekly venue for AA, and periodically for meetings by local community groups. We have permitted folks to use our lawn for yard sales to raise money for good causes. We hold dinners there for Hispanic guest workers from a local landscaping business. Between First Days, we allow the local folks to park their vehicles in our parking lot. We also have a one-room schoolhouse and until very recently operated a program where local schools sent 4th graders to experience what it was like to be a Quaker child in 1818. Although the village, where our meeting is located, was a Quaker community for many years, it no longer is, but our property is still very much part of the community and is valued even by those who never attend Meeting for Worship. </p>
<p>Recently, my husband and I were called upon to rescue the Archbishop of Cape Town (head of the Anglican church in Southern Africa and the successor to Archbishop Tutu’s seat) from a long lay over at Dulles Airport which is not too far from my meeting. We took him out to lunch at a local restaurant and then, since we had a little time to spare, we took him to the meetinghouse. When we entered, the sense of the many generations of good Quaker folk who had worshiped there was palpable and a hush descended upon us. Quite spontaneously we sat down and entered the silence for what I can only describe as a brief Meeting for Worship. The presence of the Spirit flowed through us and over us. It was an extraordinary experience and it would not have happened but for the opportunity afforded by the existence of the meetinghouse. My point is not that we needed the meetinghouse to pray together, but that God used this opportunity to bless us.</p>
<p>Perhaps, rather than viewing the issue of our meetinghouses as an either/or proposition, we should look upon them more in terms of both/and. If we use those spaces well, as part of our Quaker witness to the wider world, they can amplify our ministry. No meetinghouse, no matter how historic or beautiful, can take the place of a worship community, filled with the Spirit and going about God’s work. We have ample evidence of that. And even if we sold these spaces and “gave the money to the poor,” there is no guarantee that that is, in and of itself, God’s work. (Anyone who has had anything to do with foreign aid can attest to that!) Our meetinghouses are not sacred or holy, but assets to be put to God’s service. If we are faithful and follow the leadings of the Spirit, we will “come down where we ought to be.”</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mitzy1991		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194639</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mitzy1991]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 19:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194639</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I absolutely agree with you. I used to belong to a meeting house that met in people&#039;s home in the winter since the meeting house does not have electricity or running water. As a result, the meeting has grown very, very little in the last 100 years. People will come in the months that we meet at the meeting house but will not go when we meet in others home. When you meet in a person&#039;s home there are issues of cleanliness, allergies, etc. The meeting house is a neutral place where everyone feels welcome. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I absolutely agree with you. I used to belong to a meeting house that met in people’s home in the winter since the meeting house does not have electricity or running water. As a result, the meeting has grown very, very little in the last 100 years. People will come in the months that we meet at the meeting house but will not go when we meet in others home. When you meet in a person’s home there are issues of cleanliness, allergies, etc. The meeting house is a neutral place where everyone feels welcome. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Alice Yaxley		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194638</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alice Yaxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 18:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194638</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Apologies it&#039;s taken me a long time to catch up with this. Interesting. V sympathetic to Julie&#039;s point below, I love your writing and perspective - shibui :) 

Some of the newer charismatic movements rent space when they need it, for accessible loos, children&#039;s meeting rooms and so on - I know one that is just about bursting the seams of the club they rent, and another that meets in a local leisure centre. Nightclubs are often vacant at the times churches meet. So I don&#039;t think we need meeting houses with distinctive architecture to provide for those needs, nor for meeting outside someone&#039;s home. ETA: Oh - I am guessing this is what you meant about fire halls in the post before this one. I should follow conversations in date order instead of reading backwards.

Also love what Marshall Massey is saying below, thanks for writing that!

I am mulling over something about taking the meeting house into my life, instead. The spare plain architecture is an example I can contemplate, as my own life undergoes changes in my attempts to follow Jesus. There is an aesthetic which is starting to make an impression on me - I think if I ever get decorating and building skills, my space might start to look &quot;meeting-house-ish&quot;. I&#039;m a slow learner in several ways, and I am nowhere near there yet, but I can feel a pull. The architecture is another example of those treasures of the Quaker heritage that we can mine as we search for ways to be really faithful in the now.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies it’s taken me a long time to catch up with this. Interesting. V sympathetic to Julie’s point below, I love your writing and perspective — shibui 🙂 </p>
<p>Some of the newer charismatic movements rent space when they need it, for accessible loos, children’s meeting rooms and so on — I know one that is just about bursting the seams of the club they rent, and another that meets in a local leisure centre. Nightclubs are often vacant at the times churches meet. So I don’t think we need meeting houses with distinctive architecture to provide for those needs, nor for meeting outside someone’s home. ETA: Oh — I am guessing this is what you meant about fire halls in the post before this one. I should follow conversations in date order instead of reading backwards.</p>
<p>Also love what Marshall Massey is saying below, thanks for writing that!</p>
<p>I am mulling over something about taking the meeting house into my life, instead. The spare plain architecture is an example I can contemplate, as my own life undergoes changes in my attempts to follow Jesus. There is an aesthetic which is starting to make an impression on me — I think if I ever get decorating and building skills, my space might start to look “meeting-house-ish”. I’m a slow learner in several ways, and I am nowhere near there yet, but I can feel a pull. The architecture is another example of those treasures of the Quaker heritage that we can mine as we search for ways to be really faithful in the now.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Letters From The Street		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194637</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Letters From The Street]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194637</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194633&quot;&gt;Martin Kelley&lt;/a&gt;.

I wish I had more time for writing. I recently ended 15 years of private practice as a psychotherapist to take a full-time job (they made me an offer I couldn&#039;t refuse.) Where I used to have cancellations and no-shows that gave me time to think and write, now I am busy busy busy. Love the job; it has changed things though.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194633">Martin Kelley</a>.</p>
<p>I wish I had more time for writing. I recently ended 15 years of private practice as a psychotherapist to take a full-time job (they made me an offer I couldn’t refuse.) Where I used to have cancellations and no-shows that gave me time to think and write, now I am busy busy busy. Love the job; it has changed things though.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Letters From The Street		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194636</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Letters From The Street]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2012 14:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194636</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I finally had a chance to get back to this topic. I would like to say that in making my comments about how a meetinghouse is important to Croatan Friends, I didn&#039;t mean to say this is true for all Meetings everywhere. I only hoped to offer a point of view that broadens the dialog on this topic. Certainly, other Meetings than mine may be best served by gathering in a home or other space. Some Meetings are truly oppressed by the upkeep of a building unsuitable for their current circumstances. But let&#039;s not overlook how many Meetings are, or could be, well served by an appropriate facility of their own. And, let&#039;s not overlook how often our distinctive Quaker architecture has carried a message to visitors as profound as any words that may have been spoken.


There is more I would like to say on the issue of Young Friends and their importance to our Society, the original context which Micah addressed. I feel the discussion has been somewhat polarized, and that the reality is nowhere near so clear-cut. I have seen Meetings in which it was not age per se, but how long you had been a member of the Meeting that determined how much influence you had (and growing up in it was particularly well-thought-of.) I have seen many Meetings which cherished and encouraged their Young Friends -- I came of age as a Friend in just such a Meeting, and cannot imagine my Quaker journey would have been as rich and deep if that had not been the case. So much more to say on this topic and I haven&#039;t fully thought it through. It may require a fuller exposition on my blog. Again, I&#039;m not offering these few words as the last word, but just trying to say that there is room for a much wider viewpoint than I see so often expressed when this comes up.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I finally had a chance to get back to this topic. I would like to say that in making my comments about how a meetinghouse is important to Croatan Friends, I didn’t mean to say this is true for all Meetings everywhere. I only hoped to offer a point of view that broadens the dialog on this topic. Certainly, other Meetings than mine may be best served by gathering in a home or other space. Some Meetings are truly oppressed by the upkeep of a building unsuitable for their current circumstances. But let’s not overlook how many Meetings are, or could be, well served by an appropriate facility of their own. And, let’s not overlook how often our distinctive Quaker architecture has carried a message to visitors as profound as any words that may have been spoken.</p>
<p>There is more I would like to say on the issue of Young Friends and their importance to our Society, the original context which Micah addressed. I feel the discussion has been somewhat polarized, and that the reality is nowhere near so clear-cut. I have seen Meetings in which it was not age per se, but how long you had been a member of the Meeting that determined how much influence you had (and growing up in it was particularly well-thought-of.) I have seen many Meetings which cherished and encouraged their Young Friends — I came of age as a Friend in just such a Meeting, and cannot imagine my Quaker journey would have been as rich and deep if that had not been the case. So much more to say on this topic and I haven’t fully thought it through. It may require a fuller exposition on my blog. Again, I’m not offering these few words as the last word, but just trying to say that there is room for a much wider viewpoint than I see so often expressed when this comes up.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Martin Kelley		</title>
		<link>https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194633</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Martin Kelley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2012 01:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.quakerranter.org/?p=17209#comment-194633</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194632&quot;&gt;Letters From The Street&lt;/a&gt;.

Oh it&#039;s you Bruce?! Good, thanks, I&#039;ll update the post with this info. Since you&#039;re active on QuakerQuaker (http://www.quakerquaker.org/profile/DrBruceRArnold) and use your name there, I&#039;ve always thought of your blog as Bruce Arnold&#039;s blog and didn&#039;t recognize its name. I&#039;d like to hear more about the efforts at meeting planting and what&#039;s worked and hasn&#039;t.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.quakerranter.org/in-defense-of-worship-spaces/#comment-194632">Letters From The Street</a>.</p>
<p>Oh it’s you Bruce?! Good, thanks, I’ll update the post with this info. Since you’re active on QuakerQuaker (<a href="http://www.quakerquaker.org/profile/DrBruceRArnold" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.quakerquaker.org/profile/DrBruceRArnold</a>) and use your name there, I’ve always thought of your blog as Bruce Arnold’s blog and didn’t recognize its name. I’d like to hear more about the efforts at meeting planting and what’s worked and hasn’t.</p>
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