Comments on: Missional Churches and Half-Hearted Welcomes

By: Albion Guppy

Albion Guppy — Tue, 16 May 2006 17:58:54 +0000

Dear Friend Martin,
Yes, I agree that “perverted” is an awfully strong word. It was Lewis Benson’s word though, not mine.
I also agree with you that we are called to be obedient to the Living Spirit, and NOT the forms.
Though I think that Lewis Benson would have agreed with you too.
I find his writings to be full of his Quest as a Friend for the Living Presence of the Light of Christ Within.
His (Lewis Benson) writings remind me of Isaac Penington’s writings alot, another Friend who was also looking for the Living Spirit, and not the forms.
I thank you for your kind welcome to me here also.
There are alot of very talented Friends who write here and I always look forward to seeing what’s being discussed next.
And yes, we are going to get out and take some road trips to visit other Friends Meetings here in Iowa, and Minnesota this Summer.
I would like to quote Isaac Penington here in a rather long quote, from his book ‘The Light Within and Selected Writings’, which has no copy right that I see, would it be ok to quote several paragraphs from said book?
Thanks for your help.
In the Light of Christ, Albion

By: Martin Kelley

Martin Kelley — Fri, 12 May 2006 12:46:58 +0000

Hi Albion, I don't have time to pour through reference texts but I'm pretty sure the early Friends didn't have queries. They were a later innovation (second or third generation), a step in the codification of Quaker institutions that also included the concept of membership and the earliest editions of "Faith and Practice." I say this to point out that corporate answering of queries is not necessarily an essential component of Quaker practice. "Perverted" is an awfully strong word. We are called to be obedient to the Living Spirit, not to the forms. The age of an ancient Quaker practice should not the primary judge of its rightness. That said, it certainly was a technique that helped define and bind the Quaker community for many generations. It is certainly worth asking whether its abandonment by the majority of world Friends was done too hastily. Have we found other techiques that adequately serve a similar function or is there a gap? Might our current meetings be served by reintroducing some form of corporate answering back into our annual business? Answering of queries is still practiced here and there; I'd love to hear some feedback from Friends who have direct experience of it.

By: Albion

Albion — Tue, 09 May 2006 00:56:14 +0000

A couple of corrections;
“Lewis Benson feels that ‘the Advices and Queries’ that Friends published have to large extent (especially here in America) been perverted.”
I should have said; “have been perverted in the way in which they are currently used.”
And;
But the real reason for the Advices and Queries in the days of Early Friends, and right down to OUR own time (as Benson remembered) was for the CHURCH to examine itself.
Thanks, Albion

By: Martin Kelley

Martin Kelley — Mon, 08 May 2006 20:18:22 +0000

Hi Albion, Your rush of comments has come at a time when I've been trying to keep my head above water with work-related concerns. I'm glad you've found my blog and hope it will help connect you with like-minded Friends. I know Iowa's a bigger state that most of us East Coasters think but at least you share a state with a wonderfully open Conservative Quaker community. Quakerism isn't just thinking the faith but living it and I hope you can manage some road trips to visit Iowa YM(Cons) events this summer! I was very struck when I first realized the queries were once meant to actually be answered, in writing, by the monthly meeting itself. As you write, it's quite a difference from the personal reflections they've become. I have to run off to another bit of work but I'm thinking of you and hoping the internet does facilitate some faith connections. Your Friend, Martin

By: Albion Guppy

Albion Guppy — Mon, 08 May 2006 16:53:48 +0000

The REAL reason for the’Advices and Queries’.
I found this jewel in Lewis Benson’s booklet ‘What did George Fox teach about Christ?’ (New Foundation publications no.1);
Lewis Benson feels that ‘the Advices and Queries’ that Friends published have to large extent (especially here in America) been perverted.
Benson claims that most Friends now say that the reason for the Advices and Queries is for self-examination.
That is, they were to be read in one’s private devotions, and put to oneself.
But the real reason for the Advices and Queries in the days of Early Friends, and right down to own time (as Benson remembered) was for the CHURCH to examine itself.
That is, the the Queries read: Are Friends doing this, are Friends doing that?
The Meetings had to answer these Queries and send the answers up to Quarterly Meetings, and then on to Yearly Meeting.
Essentially asking if Friends are learning together, obeying together, and suffering together.
And if Friends were NOT, they had to DO something about it.
Benson felt that in modern times, that the Advices and Queries were no longer used by Friends in this manner, and hence forth, they contributed little to the moral life of the Friends Community.
I’m very interested in the Advices and Queries. And in learning more about them.
The copy of the Advices and Queries that we have came from Ohio Yearly Meeting.
And I’m also wondering if anyone is reading my blogs here.
We are rather isolated here in Northern Iowa from other Conservative Friends, and I long to hear from other Friends.
I also wonder if anyone here has read John William Graham’s old book (published in 1920, I believe); ‘The Faith of a Quaker’?
I would like to purchase this book, but I’d love to read a reader’s review first.
Thanks, In Christ’s Light, Albion

By: Albion Guppy

Albion Guppy — Mon, 08 May 2006 16:15:21 +0000

What I mean’t to say (from May 5th 05:18 Blog)
“I’d say, that everything that I’ve been through, brought me to this moment, and to this place, that I now find myself, in spiritually.”
From Albion

By: Albion Guppy

Albion Guppy — Fri, 05 May 2006 17:18:29 +0000

Liz Opp said;
“It seems to me that one person’s gripe is another person’s spiritual concern. I have been doing some wonderful reading that helps me feel less alone in my concern, and in fact gives me hope that I can speak to this issue—and be faithful to the Spirit in doing so.”
Dear Friend Liz,
I think that people (even Friends) get scared sometimes of a person’s spiritual background.
I’ve looked all over for REAL spirituality.
Native American spirituality, Celtic (Druidic) spirituality, and I’ve studied the Tao Te Ching and Daoism pretty throughly, SOME people can accept these spiritual wanderings with out being afraid, but sadly, most cannot.
That I landed back in the Light that we find within Quakerism, is in many ways, a true miracle!
But if I try to tell alot of people about this(anyone within Programmed Friends I’d say), they’d think that I’m simply “demonized”, from my looking into these other non-Christian, forms of spirituality.
I’d say, that everything that I’ve been through, brought me to this moment, and to this place, that I now myself, spirituality.

By: Albion Guppy

Albion Guppy — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:53:46 +0000

Dear Friends,
I’m wondering if any of you here have read the Nickall’s edition of ‘George Fox’s Journal’.
If so, did it “speak to thy condition?”
I’m very interested in becoming more tied to those Friends who identify themselves as “Conservative” (I might even say, Conservative Christian–Friends).
We live in Northern Iowa, and so that might be possible here.
Only in the Barnesville, Ohio area, and some parts of North Carolina, is it possible to find many other “Conservative Friends”.
I would suggest that one take a look at an old article by Chuck Fager about Ohio Conservative Friends;
afriendlyletter.com/afl 101.html
or, simply type in a google search for; “Ohio Conservative Friends article by Chuch Fager”.
Is there anyone else here searching Fox’s, and other Early Friends writings, for guidance?
I’m also very interested in learning about “The Inner Light Light of Christ”, and Early Quaker understandings of the Bible.
Is there anyone else here that is interested in these ideas and understandings?
I would be more than happy to discuss them with anyone who is sincerely seeking for an understanding of Early Friends Worship.
You can contact me at; quicksand53@msn.com if you too are searching.
May the Inner Light of Christ show thee the Way,
Albion
May 04, 2006
P.S. I also posted this post over at Kwakersaurs Blog too. I hope that no one minds that I post it here too.