Comments on: What Convergence means to Ohio Conservative

By: Mark Wutka

Mark Wutka — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:49:05 +0000

Pam, you wrote: but I am a christian in the sense that I am (mostly) trying to follow a path much like the one Jesus pointed to. It’s not about saying, “Lord, Lord” after all, but about how we are in the world, is it not? The verse about "Lord, Lord" doesn't really say it isn't about saying "Lord, Lord", but that saying "Lord, Lord" isn't enough. But I am not pointing this out in order to impose some set of things that you must believe or say. I feel I need to just state this with Christian language, please bear with me, it says that you can't just SAY "Jesus is Lord", but you have to MAKE Jesus your Lord - which would result in you doing the will of his Father. Whatever you call that inward guide - "the Light of Christ", "the inner light", "that of God", etc., the most important thing is to follow it. The part about "how we are in the world" flows from that, and the things we do or don't do can be an indication of how well we are listening, but they aren't a replacement for the guide. So, it just feels to me like there is some missing phrase in what you said that links the "it's not about Lord, Lord" to "how we are in the world". I'm not even really trying to criticize your statement, as much as to say that I think liberal Quakerism has gradually dropped whatever that missing phrase is, and that the first step is to recover it. With love, Mark

By: Martin Kelley

Martin Kelley — Wed, 15 Aug 2007 03:37:28 +0000

Hi Diane, I started a quick comment to this. Paragraphs later it’s “become it’s own post”:https://www.quakerranter.org/christian_revival_among_liberal_friends.php. I didn’t have time tonight to write that but your questions just seemed so pertinent!

By: Diane

Diane — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 20:20:41 +0000

Now that I can apparently get through … Hi Bill!
Martin,
I don’t know if I’m “convergent,” (probably not) but I have been involved with the emerging church for several years and with Quakerism for a decade. I also am aware of the house church movement, but my experience of it is that is is very tangentially related to Quakerism.
I really, really hope and pray that Christian revival is coming to liberal Friends, but personally I have not seen that phenomenom. Where do you see it most? Do you see it more as commitment to Christ or as more people being Christ curious, to use Robin’s phrase?
Scott Savage,
I have enjoyed your books.

By: Pam

Pam — Tue, 14 Aug 2007 12:49:30 +0000

Paul- Thanks so much for this. As a Friend who "doesn't walk with Christ" -I appreciate your ability to see that he walks with me. In the past I might have found that insulting (as if I'm a christian but don't know it, have had the wool pulled over my eyes.) but I *am* a christian in the sense that I am (mostly) trying to follow a path much like the one Jesus pointed to. It's not about saying, "Lord, Lord" after all, but about how we are in the world, is it not?

By: Paul Ricketts

Paul Ricketts — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:57:06 +0000

Yes Martin, you’ve hit on element of Convergent Friends: Friends “who are sensing there’s something missing and [are] looking to traditional Quakerism for answers.”
I made a decision couple years ago to stay in the Religious Society of Friends.
Big part of that decision was finding peace with being a Quaker of Color in a very
White faith community and now being a Christian particularly in the FGC
unprogrammed tradition.
The days of Thomas Kelly and Rufus Jones-liberal Christianity are over!
FGC/ Independent unprogrammed Quakerism has evolved into a
non creedal religious pluralist faith community.
That’s not good or bad it just is.….….….…..
Like many Friends, I have struggle with how to live in and among
the diversity among Friends.
But I am remained of the story in Mark 9:38–41, John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us. Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
I know of many unprogrammed Friends who do not walk with Christ.
But Christ walks with them in, driving out the demons racism, sexism, homophobia , war, prison reform, working for the rights of children.
Many of these friends have given me a cup of water to drink (a listening ear) when I was going through a dry period among Friends.
All this in the name of Love which for me is the incarnation of Christ.
What is traditional Quakerism ?
For me traditional Quakerism is simply the work of Christ in all and through all.
The One who is Truth and Love sits with me at the table, with White Friends working on racism in and outside of the Religious Society of Friends.
The Eternal Life and Power prays with me in waiting worship with the non-theist Friends, Yes, the Sun/Son of Righteousness and Prince of Peace marchs with me for peace and justice with AFSC Friends.
I would gain nothing by trotting off to another denomination where I could doubtless find a place, but it would not be my place with my people. I choose to stand within both the community of Christian revelation and the community of Quaker seekers.
I choose to stand where I know Christ continues to stand.

By: Martin Kelley

Martin Kelley — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:34:05 +0000

*Craig:* Uh-oh. First Chesterton, now Luther! “Grace” means different things to different people and can be a pretty loaded word in Christian circles. Despite or perhaps because of my Lutheran Nana Kleintop, I’m not a big fan of Luther’s absolutist understanding (what I understand of it anyway).
I think we can consciously align our lives and lifestyles in ways that will make us more receptive to the voice of the Inward Christ. My email signature used to be a quote from Revelation that I picked up from Barclay (“chapter 16”:http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/catechism/chapter16.html of the _Catechism_):
bq. God dwelleth with the Contrite and Humble in Spirit [Isa. 57:15] For he said, he will dwell in them, and walk in them [2 Cor. 6:16] And Christ standeth at the Door, and knocketh; if any man hear his Voice, and open the Door, he will come unto him, and sup with him, and he with him [Rev. 3:20].
I moved by the idea that Christ is always there, always gently knocking and that our role is simply to open the door. Grace is always available and constantly offered. Not quite as dour as Luther, though again I’ve not really studied him.
It’s always good to remember what we get we get from God’s love. Getting back to the thread of this post, this translate into an awareness that we shouldn’t expect any kind of immediate result when undertaking ministry. And that we should follow authentic leadings even when they seem pretty pointless–that we never know when God will breathe new life into individuals or a people. Our role is to be faithful, not effective. But faithfulness requires acting on leadings and on actively sharing the Good News of God’s love and grace as we are led.

By: Craig

Craig — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:34:17 +0000

Ya know, I don’t know why I feel such a leading to point this out, but in all this conversation on Robin’s blog and here, I have not seen a word about grace. Grace is THE reason I am a Christian instead of a Buddhist, pagan, etc.
It’s not that the comments back and forth are harsh…far from it. But there is something just not right about how we deal with one another even on a seemingly civil level.
We are all growing in Jesus only by God’s grace. I am not what I shall be…as Luther said, “Life is not being but becoming.”
God grant us patience to allow each other to hear the Voice of God and follow. Grant us the grace to be as gracious to one another as God has been to us.
Love ane peace,
Craig

By: Martin Kelley

Martin Kelley — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:07:07 +0000

My wife just replied "ooooh, he's quoting a Catholic!" (Chesterton). In Quaker shorthand she's kind of Wilburite Catholic (left Friends after eleven years struggling with the liberals, now part of a traditionalist Roman Rite 1962-Hymnal-all-the-way-baby kind of church). She actually read your first comment on Robin's blog, thought to herself "yes I think he's right" then noted in embarrassment that I had posted something in response: whoops! Anyway... I have a certain fondness for cranks and most people probably think I'm much of one myself. I've said before that I think calling ourselves "Convergent Friends" makes us sound more organized, cohesive and central to the movement than we are. There's no ID card, much less a formal definition. As I see it, "Convergence" is shorthand for a generational and cultural shift that's happening. The pendulum's swinging back and Friends outside Ohio are more interested in Quaker roots, Christianity and Conservative Friends than they have been for awhile (it would be easy to overstate the case, of course, and many Quaker institutions continue to get more and more liberal). Outside Quakerism, a growing number of under-50 Evangelicals are turning away from the megachurches and televangelists, starting house churches, looking for authenticity of worship and talking about primitive Christianity revived and surely we have something to say to them too. Where it's all going is anyone's guess. It was neat to read Chris M's comment on his wife's blog about the ripple effects of your visit to San Francisco a decade ago. And another Friend emailed me privately this afternoon to tell me how North Carolina yearly meeting has become more deeply Christocentric in the few years he's been with it. In Christ all things are possible! The situation might call for the faintest Mona Lisa smile on that dour exterior. Are you going to be in Barnesville next week? And what kind of religious body might you belong to now? And what's up with the computer, we'd all love to hear that story! In Friendship, Martin